Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VIII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

• Senator Richard B. Russell
• Senator John Sherman Cooper
• Representative Hale Boggs
• Representative Gerald R. Ford
• Mr. Allen W. Dulles
• Mr. John J. McCloy
• J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel
• Assistant Counsel
• Francis W. H. Adams
• Joseph A. Ball
• David W. Belin
• William T. Coleman, Jr.
• Melvin Aron Eisenberg
• Burt W. Griffin
• Leon D. Hubert, Jr.
• Albert E. Jenner, Jr.
• Wesley J. Liebeler
• Norman Redlich
• W. David Slawson
• Arlen Specter
• Samuel A. Stern
• Howard P. Willens[A]
• Staff Members
• Phillip Barson
• Edward A. Conroy
• John Hart Ely
• Alfred Goldberg
• Murray J. Laulicht
• Arthur Marmor
• Richard M. Mosk
• John J. O'Brien
• Stuart Pollak
• Alfredda Scobey
• Charles N. Shaffer, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.

[Preface]

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S. O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic, Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr., Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A. Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in 1962.

[Contents]

[EXHIBITS INTRODUCED]

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

[TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL]

The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. You are Edward Voebel?

Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where is your place of business?

Mr. Voebel. At the same place.

Mr. Jenner. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street?

Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And that's here in New Orleans?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your mother and father, are you not?

Mr. Voebel. Mother, uncle, and grandmother.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother?

Mr. Voebel. That's right.

Mr. Jenner. And what is your business?

Mr. Voebel. Quality Florist Co.

Mr. Jenner. What is your age, Mr. Voebel?

Mr. Voebel. I am 23.

Mr. Jenner. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Warren Commission, did you not?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B. Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. You received that also?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you gather from those documents that the Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some contact with him; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to ask you a few questions about that.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that came about.

Mr. Voebel. Well, it was at school.

Mr. Jenner. Is that Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what year that was?

Mr. Voebel. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about 1954 or 1955.

Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware of him?

Mr. Voebel. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole story?

Mr. Jenner. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him, because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit.

Mr. Jenner. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you remember?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me the circumstances of that, please.

Mr. Voebel. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee had a fight with a couple of boys.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know their names?

Mr. Voebel. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike.

Mr. Jenner. John and Mike?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. They were classmates?

Mr. Voebel. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the street in the direction naturally in which I was going.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a protracted fight?

Mr. Voebel. Protracted?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; did it keep going on?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run them off of one block, they would go on to the next.

Mr. Jenner. That was fisticuffs; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Were they about the same age?

Mr. Voebel. Oswald and John?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Voebel. I don't know; I guess so.

Mr. Jenner. How about size?

Mr. Voebel. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know what caused the fight?

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't. I don't remember that.

Mr. Jenner. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you not?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why, were you curious?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. The fight traveled my route home.

Mr. Jenner. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the street?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.

Mr. Jenner. Whose mouth?

Mr. Voebel. Mike Neumeyer.

Mr. Jenner. The little boy?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.

Some big guy, probably from a high school—he looked like a tremendous football player—punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help him.

Mr. Jenner. He just swung one lick and ran?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the post on him.

Mr. Jenner. Passed the post, what's that?

Mr. Voebel. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on Lee at that time.

Mr. Jenner. You think that might have happened because of the squabble he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this happening, and a couple of other boys and I—I don't remember who they were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point on, would you say?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and share interests, and what were his interests?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown—I told the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall.

Mr. Jenner. And did you accept his invitation?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's when we played darts.

Mr. Jenner. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where was that?

Mr. Voebel. On Exchange Alley.

Mr. Jenner. Exchange Alley?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you find him adept in playing pool?

Mr. Voebel. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I don't think he was a great pool player.

Mr. Jenner. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he liked it.

Mr. Jenner. He liked to play pool?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he seemed to like it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever meet his mother?

Mr. Voebel. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as I recall that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you smoke?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee smoke?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you drink?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I don't, really.

Mr. Jenner. Do you drink occasionally?

Mr. Voebel. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a drinker.

Mr. Jenner. How about Lee, was he a drinker?

Mr. Voebel. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind.

There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the others.

Mr. Jenner. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. That's my problem.

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14 or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. People change, of course.

Mr. Voebel. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee. I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him, but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost contact with Lee years ago.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least, that was my impression of them.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at Beauregard School while you were attending there?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to fight at that school.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of characters that were going to that school at that time.

Mr. Jenner. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just the opposite of that; isn't that true?

Mr. Voebel. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been, now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of his way to avoid it.

Mr. Jenner. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to speak?

Mr. Voebel. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a coeducational school?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. High school or junior high?

Mr. Voebel. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now, but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang wars and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. You still live close to the school?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics, pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there for about a year, and then he disappeared.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. No; I went to Fortier.

Mr. Jenner. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High School to then enroll in Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's normally right.

Mr. Jenner. That's the regular progression?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during that summer.

Mr. Jenner. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade, or what?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember. Let's see—no; I think we were in the same grade, I think we were.

Mr. Jenner. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school?

Mr. Voebel. I went to Fortier.

Mr. Jenner. Any reason?

Mr. Voebel. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system.

Mr. Jenner. That's why you went over there?

Mr. Voebel. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Are you a service man?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In what branch?

Mr. Voebel. Army.

Mr. Jenner. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee?

Mr. Voebel. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym periods were different.

I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.

Mr. Jenner. You don't think Lee did?

Mr. Voebel. No, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the community before they accepted him.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there.

Mr. Voebel. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.

Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh, maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue, I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and adolescent things.

Mr. Jenner. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force, whatever it was; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir; he met it head on.

Mr. Jenner. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up?

Mr. Voebel. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they would hang around in bunches.

In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked, so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after school, almost the same way this happened to Lee.

Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs.

Mr. Jenner. They didn't attack you any more?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was normal, having in mind the problems he was facing?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, except that he didn't make friends.

Mr. Jenner. He did not?

Mr. Voebel. No; he was not inclined to make friends.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't know why he was so disinclined?

Mr. Voebel. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends. It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally. He was just living in his own world, let's say.

Mr. Jenner. But you did have some measure of common interest that you told me about?

Mr. Voebel. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you have in mind?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at.

Mr. Voebel. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns.

Mr. Jenner. And these were regular weapons, not toys?

Mr. Voebel. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few foreign military weapons.

Mr. Jenner. Was that World War I?

Mr. Voebel. World War II.

Mr. Jenner. Your uncle?

Mr. Voebel. That's right, my uncle.

Mr. Jenner. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting them or anything.

I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to want something just to have it, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. You couldn't interest him in that?

Mr. Voebel. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music, and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things, and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't seem to run that way.

Mr. Jenner. Was he interested in music?

Mr. Voebel. No; he wasn't.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile?

Mr. Voebel. I never had seen him drive at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss the subject with him?

Mr. Voebel. Not that I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or couldn't drive an automobile?

Mr. Voebel. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They were no bigger than that.

Mr. Jenner. Almost minnows?

Mr. Voebel. Right, and I think he liked to fish.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk about fishing?

Mr. Voebel. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went fishing that day.

Mr. Jenner. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances?

Mr. Voebel. Financial circumstances?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his finances.

Mr. Voebel. Poor.

Mr. Jenner. Poor?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. That made no difference to you?

Mr. Voebel. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me. It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like that, because I don't have the time.

Mr. Jenner. Are you married?

Mr. Voebel. No.

Mr. Jenner. When did you get out of the service?

Mr. Voebel. Two years ago. I just served 6 months.

Mr. Jenner. That's a sort of special program?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves.

Mr. Jenner. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army Terminal and also take in the World's Fair?

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him?

Mr. Voebel. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot pool?

Mr. Voebel. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, I had to help them out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever own a weapon?

Mr. Voebel. A real one?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Voebel. Not that I know of.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something there that you want to tell me about?

Mr. Voebel. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45.

Mr. Jenner. A plastic model?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and everything that he needed for a burglary, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that.

Mr. Voebel. Well, we were over at Easton.

Mr. Jenner. Easton High School?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high school.

Mr. Jenner. Was that right at the time you were graduating from Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from Beauregard; right?

Mr. Voebel. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard altogether?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Or was that at Easton?