Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
XII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

• Senator Richard B. Russell
• Senator John Sherman Cooper
• Representative Hale Boggs
• Representative Gerald R. Ford
• Mr. Allen W. Dulles
• Mr. John J. McCloy
• J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel
• Assistant Counsel
• Francis W. H. Adams
• Joseph A. Ball
• David W. Belin
• William T. Coleman, Jr.
• Melvin Aron Eisenberg
• Burt W. Griffin
• Leon D. Hubert, Jr.
• Albert E. Jenner, Jr.
• Wesley J. Liebeler
• Norman Redlich
• W. David Slawson
• Arlen Specter
• Samuel A. Stern
• Howard P. Willens[A]
• Staff Members
• Phillip Barson
• Edward A. Conroy
• John Hart Ely
• Alfred Goldberg
• Murray J. Laulicht
• Arthur Marmor
• Richard M. Mosk
• John J. O'Brien
• Stuart Pollak
• Alfredda Scobey
• Charles N. Shaffer, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

[A]Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.

[Preface]

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XII: Charles Batchelor, Jesse E. Curry, J. E. Decker, W. B. Frazier, O. A. Jones, Jack Revill, James Maurice Solomon, M. W. Stevenson, and Cecil E. Talbert, Charles Oliver Arnett, Buford Lee Beaty, Alvin R. Brock, B. H. Combest, Kenneth Hudson Croy, Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, Napoleon J. Daniels, William J. Harrison, Harold B. Holly, Jr., Harry M. Kriss, Roy Lee Lowery, Frank M. Martin, Billy Joe Maxey, Logan W. Mayo, Louis D. Miller, William J. Newman, Bobby G. Patterson, Rio S. Pierce, James A. Putnam, Willie B. Slack, Don Francis Steele, Roy Eugene Vaughn, James C. Watson, G. E. Worley, and Woodrow Wiggins, Dallas law enforcement officers who were responsible for planning and executing the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail; and Don Ray Archer, Barnard S. Clardy, and Patrick Trevore Dean, who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby.

[Contents]

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF ASSISTANT CHIEF CHARLES BATCHELOR

The testimony of Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor was taken at 8:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Griffin. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Chief Batchelor.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the security surrounding the protection of Lee Harvey Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry having to do with the death of President Kennedy.

Chief Batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that any witness may waive this notice. Do you now waive this notice?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Chief Batchelor. I do.

Mr. Griffin. Will you state your name for the record?

Chief Batchelor. Charles Batchelor.

Mr. Griffin. What is your age?

Chief Batchelor. Fifty-eight.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Batchelor?

Chief Batchelor. 1022 Franklin Avenue, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation?

Chief Batchelor. I am assistant chief of police of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Chief Batchelor. Since May 1, 1936.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been assistant chief?

Chief Batchelor. Since January 20, 1960.

Mr. Griffin. Of course you and I have spoken at some length earlier this afternoon. In that conversation, we discussed your activities from the time that you learned that President Kennedy was shot on November 22 until Saturday, November 23, when you first heard something about the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas City Jail to the Dallas County Jail. I believe you told me that sometime on Saturday night you were confronted by some newspaper reporters with respect to the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Would you tell us, Chief Batchelor, about what time of the night these reporters approached you?

Chief Batchelor. This must have been somewhere around 7:30 or 8 o'clock at night.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you?

Chief Batchelor. I was in the administrative offices of the police department at headquarters.

Mr. Griffin. That is on the third floor? On the third floor of the police and——

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Were you inside your own office?

Chief Batchelor. No; I was out in the outer office of the administrative offices where the secretaries are.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how many reporters confronted you?

Chief Batchelor. There were two of them.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who they were?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't recall who they were now. It was a rather casual request. They asked, or they said, rather, that they were hungry and hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner, and they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the prisoner. And I told them I had no idea when they were going to move the prisoner.

About that time Chief Curry came up and he told them, he said, "Oh, I think if you fellows are back here by 10 o'clock in the morning you won't miss anything."

So they left with that and went to eat.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other reporters around at that time?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. Then later, just a very few minutes later, Chief Curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in the hall so they won't be hanging around, because they were apparently doing nothing, just waiting. So he went out and told them that if they would come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, they were not going to move the prisoner in the meantime.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Chief Curry after he first spoke to these two newspaper reporters?

Chief Batchelor. You mean with reference to the movement of the prisoner?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. He told me that he didn't know exactly when they would move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with questioning him, but he knew that Captain Fritz wanted to question him again in the morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we would move him.

Mr. Griffin. Where did that conversation take place?

Chief Batchelor. In the administrative offices. One thing I think I omitted. From the time that he told these reporters that if they were to come back by 10 o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would miss anything, he went in and discussed it with Captain Fritz as to how he was progressing with the interrogation and whether or not he thought he would be through with him in the morning.

Mr. Griffin. You mean this was between the time he——

Chief Batchelor. Before he went out and announced it to the rest of the press.

Mr. Griffin. About how much time elapsed, would you say, from the time he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general announcement?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, I would estimate maybe 30 minutes; no longer.

Mr. Griffin. Now, in between times, did he talk with you about the movement?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed movement?

Chief Batchelor. You mean the mechanics of moving him?

Mr. Griffin. Anything?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. What was the next thing you learned about the proposed movement of Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. I just assumed that we would move him the next morning sometime after 10 o'clock. I didn't know exactly when, and I came down the next morning around 8 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn anything about the movement between the time Chief Curry made the general announcement to the press and the time that you went home that night?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any conversation around the building?

Chief Batchelor. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody else present from the police department when you talked with the two newspaper reporters?

Chief Batchelor. There were some secretaries in the office. This was not addressed to me particularly. They might have overheard it. We were in the office, in the outer office nearest Chief Curry's office at this time, and I believe Mrs. Ann Schreiber was holding down that desk.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you leave the police department on Saturday night or Sunday morning?

Chief Batchelor. It was, I believe, on Saturday night, or Sunday morning. It was around midnight. It wasn't quite as late as it was the night before when I left.

Mr. Griffin. So would it be your estimate that about 4 hours elapsed between the chief's press conference and the time you left?

Chief Batchelor. I would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not too far off.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh your recollection.

Chief Batchelor. I want to take that back. It was earlier than that when I left there on Saturday night. It was quite late on Friday night, but it was around 9:30 when I left Saturday night.

Mr. Griffin. Are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? Are you referring to this report dated November 23d?

Chief Batchelor. I think the times in this are fairly accurate.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, I want to hand you what has already been marked for identification as Stevenson Exhibit 5053. Can you identify that?

Chief Batchelor. Yes. This was a report signed by myself, Chief Lumpkin, and Chief Stevenson which was the result of a staff résumé made within a few days after Oswald was shot.

It was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and elements of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them. Some of the times, particularly with reference to the President's arrival, which had to do with meeting with some Secret Service people and other groups, and some of this we were a little bit hazy on at first and we went back and checked some facts.

As an example, we checked the Baker Hotel schedule on a room that was reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time this meeting was, and things of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. I see. The members of the police department held a meeting at the Baker Hotel sometime over the weekend?

Chief Batchelor. No. The hostess committee of the city which was hosting the President's arrival and arranging for the luncheon, it was kind of a planning committee, and we were asked, or I was asked to one of these meetings with some of the Secret Service people.

So this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this happened that we could relate some other things.

Mr. Griffin. Now your report indicates that you left Saturday night at 9:30 p.m. Between the time that Chief Curry made his announcement to the press and you left at 9:30 p.m., were you confronted by any other newspaper people about the movement of Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. As a matter of fact, we left not too long after this because after this announcement was made, the press began to leave themselves. The third floor became fairly quiet and there wasn't anybody up there to speak of and it just died out.

Mr. Griffin. Were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his announcement with respect to Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how you arrived at the time at 9:30, stated in the report? Was that based on your records?

Chief Batchelor. That was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report.

Mr. Griffin. Now, who was left in charge of the police department that night after you left at 9:30?

Chief Batchelor. We have a night chief who comes on at 5 o'clock in the afternoon and he works until 2 in the morning.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who it was that night?

Chief Batchelor. Well, there is only one. It would have been Chief Jack Tanner.

Mr. Griffin. Who would then replace him at 2 o'clock in the morning?

Chief Batchelor. No one. There is a, well, I say no one. There is an inspector also who works around the clock. I don't recall which inspector was on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at night around the clock.

Mr. Griffin. I notice—if you want to refer to your report on page 29, the report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home about 6:30 in the morning from Captain Talbert. Can you tell us what that call was about?

Chief Batchelor. Yes, sir. He called and informed me that he had gotten a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it; he said an anonymous call.

Later I learned it came from the FBI, and they in turn had called him. That about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner Oswald and they didn't want to get any policeman hurt. So I told him to send a squad by Chief Curry's house and inform him about it. And at that moment we weren't concerned about him in the jail. We were concerned about him in the transfer.

Mr. Griffin. Why did Talbert call you rather than some other member of the police department?

Chief Batchelor. He tried to call Chief Curry and he couldn't get him to answer his phone. I guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him up. And I told him to send a squad car by and tell him.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Did you have any discussion with him at that point who had responsibility to make this decision? Did you feel you had the responsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received this report that some men were going to try to go after Oswald? Did you feel you had any responsibility to take any protective action?

Chief Batchelor. At that moment?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. No. The way it came to me, it was my feeling that this was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the jail and get him.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you received that phone call?

Chief Batchelor. I got up and dressed to come down to the office.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you arrive down at the office?

Chief Batchelor. About 8 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got to the office?

Chief Batchelor. Chief Stevenson and I got there about the same time. I parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into the police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the areaway leading into the garage.

I made the comment that they would have to do something about the television camera because it was right in the path where they would bring the prisoner out. There was no one around the camera. It was just sitting there.

Mr. Griffin. I want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of the basement garage area. Do you have a pencil or anything that you can mark with?

Chief Batchelor. Yes. The camera—can I mark here?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Chief Batchelor. The camera was sitting right here.

Mr. Griffin. Would you put a "C" there so we know it is a camera.

Chief Batchelor. [Complies.]

Mr. Griffin. Now, what television station had this camera there?

Chief Batchelor. It was KRLD.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you think it was KRLD?

Chief Batchelor. I just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on the side of the camera. I could be wrong. It could have been a WBAP camera.

Mr. Griffin. Was the camera manned?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other people in the basement area at that time?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Who was it that you instructed to move the camera?

Chief Batchelor. I didn't instruct anybody at that moment. We merely commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later when we came back down.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do after you passed the camera?

Chief Batchelor. Went up to the office.

Mr. Griffin. How did you go?

Chief Batchelor. Went through the basement and into the elevator and went up.

Mr. Griffin. You went up to the third floor?

Chief Batchelor. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. To your office. Do you remember what conversation you had with Chief Stevenson along the way?

Chief Batchelor. Well, we were commenting about that camera and that they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man that basement. But at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we would move him. Actually, back in our minds, I suppose, was the idea that when the time came, that the sheriff's department would probably move him, because this is customary in moving a prisoner. They normally come down and get the prisoner.

Mr. Griffin. Did you discuss with Chief Stevenson anywhere along the way upstairs this phone call which you received from Mr. Talbert earlier in the morning?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; I think I mentioned that to him.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything about that conversation?

Chief Batchelor. Not anything especially.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether he knew or Stevenson knew at the time you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat?

Chief Batchelor. I believe he did. I think someone from one of his bureaus had called him, if I remember right. It was rather common knowledge that a call like that had been received.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you recall whether or not there were any people in the basement?

Chief Batchelor. No; I don't remember anybody except those people in the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. The people in the jail office were employees of the jail?

Chief Batchelor. They were the jail crew that stay on all night long; yes. Not the all night. These would have been the morning shift just come on.

Mr. Griffin. At what time did that morning shift come on?

Chief Batchelor. At 7 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the time that you believe you saw that camera?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.]

Mr. Griffin. I am marking this, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 5000."

As you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you see anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record room other than police department employees?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what happened when you got up to the third floor? What did you do?

Chief Batchelor. I went to my office. I don't remember exactly what I did. Chief Curry came in very shortly after that, and I went into this office and we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner.

Mr. Griffin. Now will you try to remember who else was in the office with Chief Curry when you walked in?

Chief Batchelor. No one.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody come in after you?

Chief Batchelor. Stevenson came in a little bit later.

Mr. Griffin. How much later, would you say?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, 2 or 3 minutes later, if I remember.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody else come in after that during this conversation?

Chief Batchelor. I don't recall that they did. I don't believe there was.

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Lunday come in?

Chief Batchelor. No. Chief Lunday didn't come down until later in the morning, I believe.

Mr. Griffin. Did Captain Talbert join you?

Chief Batchelor. No.

Mr. Griffin. Was Captain Talbert still on duty when you arrived at the police department?

Chief Batchelor. Captain Talbert was on duty that morning. He came on at 7 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Talbert came on at 7, but as I understand it, Talbert called you at your home about 6:30. How did that happen?

Chief Batchelor. Well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon commander comes down early before the rest of the men to get his detail, and he had gotten this information from the night commander. The information came into them before they came on duty, and someone had tried to call Chief Curry. When they came down, they told me about it and I called them and I told them to send a squad by and wake Chief Curry up and tell him.

Mr. Griffin. What platoon was Talbert in charge of?

Chief Batchelor. The second platoon that month.

Mr. Griffin. By "platoon," what do you mean?

Chief Batchelor. The first platoon is the night platoon that comes on theoretically at midnight. It actually comes on at 11 o'clock the preceding day and it goes to 7 o'clock the next morning.

Mr. Griffin. What area does a platoon man?

Chief Batchelor. It mans the city. This is a uniform platoon. We have three substations and they change the same way. The substations are under the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a lieutenant in charge of the substation who accounts to the platoon commander, who is a captain.

Mr. Griffin. Tell me if my understanding is right, that Talbert at this point had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the city?

Chief Batchelor. That's right.

Mr. Griffin. Sort of like the executive officer on a ship or something?

Chief Batchelor. That's right.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what your conversation was with Chief Curry up in his office when you first went in?

Chief Batchelor. I asked him, I believe, if he had called Sheriff Decker.

Mr. Griffin. What did he say?

Chief Batchelor. He said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that. And he did do it. He picked up the phone and called Sheriff Decker.

This was—I got down around 9 o'clock—I mean around 8 o'clock, correction—and it must have been somewhere around 8:30 or 8:45 when he called Decker.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you talk with him before he called Sheriff Decker?

Chief Batchelor. Just a few minutes. He called Sheriff Decker, and Decker said—and I was hearing only one side of the conversation, but I gathered that Decker had told him he thought he was going to move the prisoner. Curry said, "Well, if you want us to, we will." So he said, "I think you've got more manpower than we have. You move him if you will."

Then we had discussed this threat that had been received and——

Mr. Griffin. You and——

Chief Batchelor. Curry.

Mr. Griffin. Did Curry mention the threat to Decker in the telephone conversation?

Chief Batchelor. I just don't remember whether he did or not. I would think reasonably that he did, but I don't remember.

Mr. Griffin. When Chief Curry talked with Decker, did he make any mention of what time Oswald would be moved?

Chief Batchelor. He didn't set any definite time. He told him that Captain Fritz wanted to question Oswald again that morning, and that when he got through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought this would be sometime after 10 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Had Fritz begun to question Oswald when Curry was on the telephone with Decker?

Chief Batchelor. I really don't know. Shortly after we made the decision, Curry went back to the office and they were questioning him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when Curry and Decker talked on the telephone on this occasion, did Curry say anything about how Oswald would be moved?

Chief Batchelor. Well, I think he called him back later and told him how after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an armored car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined that he wasn't going to move him and it was going to be our job. Then we decided to discuss the armored car.

Mr. Griffin. Did Chief Curry have any discussion with Decker in this first telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in moving Oswald?

Chief Batchelor. I don't think so, because I am sure we didn't know at that moment just exactly what we would do. He went back and talked to Fritz about the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and Stevenson came up and discussed it, and our plan was to take him down Elm Street originally. We would go out of the basement to Commerce, Commerce to Central Expressway, north on Central to Elm, and then west on Elm to Houston, and then go back east to the jail entrance door of the county jail and come in. This was our original plan.

Mr. Griffin. In this first telephone conversation with Decker was Stevenson present in Curry's office?

Chief Batchelor. I don't believe he was. I know he wasn't when we started. He may have walked in there while I was talking to him, but I believe Curry and I was the only ones present.

Mr. Griffin. When Curry finished talking with Decker and he hung up the phone, did he say anything to you?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; he said obviously Decker wants us to move him.

Mr. Griffin. What did you say?

Chief Batchelor. I said we'd better start making some arrangements then. And he said, "What do you think about getting an armored car, an armored truck?"

And I said, "I think I know where I can get one."

Mr. Griffin. Where was that?

Chief Batchelor. This was from the Armored Motor Car Service.

Mr. Griffin. Where is that located?

Chief Batchelor. It is on—what is the name of that street?

Mr. Griffin. In the downtown area?

Chief Batchelor. It just borders on the downtown area. It is off of Ross Avenue.

Mr. Griffin. North or south?

Chief Batchelor. It is north of Ross Avenue. I should think of the name of the street. It is an old street here, but I just can't think of it offhand.

Mr. Griffin. What is the name of the armored car company again?

Chief Batchelor. Armored Motor Car Service. It is actually a Fort Worth company who services both Dallas and Fort Worth, and they have an office here, too.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead.

Chief Batchelor. After this, I told him that I thought I could get one. I then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where I might get ahold of his phone number. And I called the vice president at his home. This was on Sunday morning. It was before he had gone to church. It must have been somewhere around 9 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us the name of the vice president?

Chief Batchelor. It was Mr. Fleming. Mr. Fleming was the vice president, and I talked to him at his home, and he told me that he would be glad to furnish us one. As a matter of fact, he had two trucks which we could take our choice. One was a small truck, but would accommodate only one passenger in the back. The other one was what they call an overland truck, and it had seats on either side in the back and would accommodate several people.

And I said, "I don't know whether this will go down to the basement or not." But I asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but he would have it measured and let me know. And I told him that I would find out what the height of the ramp was. We have a low place in the ramp as you go down at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only 7 feet 5 inches tall at that point, so I found out what that height was, and I called him back.

Mr. Griffin. Now at the time you first talked with Mr. Fleming, did you indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after. And he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to call a crew down to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving the small one.

Mr. Griffin. When was the truck brought down?

Chief Batchelor. It was brought down—probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock, because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to 11 o'clock when they finally got down there with it.

Mr. Griffin. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route?

Chief Batchelor. I don't believe that I told him the route we were going to take, no. I know I didn't tell him.

Mr. Griffin. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where was Chief Curry, if you know?

Chief Batchelor. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my office. I left his office and went into my office and called him.

Mr. Griffin. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he?

Chief Batchelor. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office with him. We were all together.

Mr. Griffin. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call with Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do?

Chief Batchelor. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions, he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need to cover that basement down there. One other thing, Chief Lumpkin had come in and he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that ramp was down there, what the clearance was.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called Fleming?

Chief Batchelor. I think he went down there. He called somebody down that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the first time.

Mr. Griffin. Does your office, Chief, maintain any records of outgoing telephone calls?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the time that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming, would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the conversation with Decker?

Chief Batchelor. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I mean, except the few people on the staff.

Mr. Griffin. I realize that nobody would have known about the particular contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is, is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men in? You'd better send out a general call to bring in more men?

Chief Batchelor. This would have been handled in a telephone conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason for it. Talbert did have some men called in. He did have some men called in.

Mr. Griffin. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the conversation?

Chief Batchelor. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well, I don't know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock, I presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across the street from the city hall on Commerce waiting for this thing to happen.

Mr. Griffin. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock?

Chief Batchelor. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they were down there around 10 o'clock.

Mr. Griffin. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would have been recorded in the police department?

Chief Batchelor. About the movement of the prisoner?

Mr. Griffin. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the prisoner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time in which this conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have said at this point, "All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and Stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time?

Chief Batchelor. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives.

He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there.

Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would need. And when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this information, I don't know.

Mr. Griffin. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did you do? After you finished that telephone conversation?

Chief Batchelor. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed them—it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail office, to get that camera out of there. And we instructed them—Curry went down with us, too, and there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were sitting in these places right here.

Mr. Griffin. You want to take a pen and mark?

Chief Batchelor. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit].

Mr. Griffin. What time of the morning would you estimate that was?

Chief Batchelor. This must have been about 9:30 or 9:15, somewhere along in there.

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was in between the two cars where you marked?

Chief Batchelor. [Indicates time.]

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that time?

Chief Batchelor. Yes; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car was over here, and mine was over here.

Mr. Griffin. That is in the chief's normal parking place?

Chief Batchelor. These all are our normal spaces.

Mr. Griffin. You want to mark those in there?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks.]

Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there or not. I don't remember his.

Mr. Griffin. You want to put the time in between those two also?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks time.]

Mr. Griffin. What time they were parked in there, the time that you are talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time that was on the other cars?

Chief Batchelor. They were there all morning. They were parked there and they stayed there up until we moved them.

Mr. Griffin. So they were there at 9:15 to 9:30?

Chief Batchelor. [Marks on chart.]

Mr. Griffin. Were there other cars in the basement area?