Transcriber’s Note: Cover created by Transcriber and placed in the Public Domain.

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President’s Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
XV

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

• Senator Richard B. Russell
• Senator John Sherman Cooper
• Representative Hale Boggs
• Representative Gerald R. Ford
• Mr. Allen W. Dulles
• Mr. John J. McCloy
• J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel
• Assistant Counsel
• Francis W. H. Adams
• Joseph A. Ball
• David W. Belin
• William T. Coleman, Jr.
• Melvin Aron Eisenberg
• Burt W. Griffin
• Leon D. Hubert, Jr.
• Albert E. Jenner, Jr.
• Wesley J. Liebeler
• Norman Redlich
• W. David Slawson
• Arlen Specter
• Samuel A. Stern
• Howard P. Willens[A]

[A]Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the Department of Justice.

• Staff Members
• Phillip Barson
• Edward A. Conroy
• John Hart Ely
• Alfred Goldberg
• Murray J. Laulicht
• Arthur Marmor
• Richard M. Mosk
• John J. O’Brien
• Stuart Pollak
• Alfredda Scobey
• Charles N. Shaffer, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission’s Report.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XV; Hyman Rubenstein, a brother of Jack L. Ruby; Glen D. King, administrative assistant to the chief of the Dallas police; C. Ray Hall, an FBI agent who interviewed Ruby; Charles Batchelor, assistant chief of the Dallas police; Jesse E. Curry, chief of the Dallas police; M. W. Stevenson, deputy chief of the Dallas police; Elgin English Crull, city manager of Dallas; J. W. Fritz, captain in charge of the Dallas Homicide Bureau; Roland A. Cox, a Dallas policeman; Harold J. Fleming, vice president of the Armored Motor Car Service of Dallas, and Don Edward Goin, Marvin E. Hall and Edward C. Dietrich, employees of the Armored Motor Car Service; Capt. Cecil E. Talbert of the Dallas Police Department, who was in charge of the patrol division on November 26, 1963; Marjorie R. Richey, James Thomas Aycox, Thomas Stewart Palmer, Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr., Edward J. Pullman, Herbert B. Kravitz, Joseph Rossi, Norman Earl Wright, Lawrence V. Meyers, William D. Crowe, Jr., Nancy Monnell Powell, Dave L. Miller and Russell Lee Moore (Knight), former employees, business associates, friends, or acquaintances of Ruby; Eileen Kaminsky and Eva L. Grant, sisters of Ruby; George William Fehrenbach, a purported acquaintance of Ruby; Abraham Kleinman, Ruby’s accountant; Wanda Yvonne Helmick, an employee of a business associate of Ruby; Kenneth Lawry Dowe, who talked to Ruby over the telephone on November 23, 1963; T. M. Hansen, Jr., a Dallas police officer; Nelson Benton, a Dallas news reporter who spoke with Chief Curry on the morning of November 26; Frank Bellocchio, an acquaintance of Ruby, who spoke with him on November 23, 1963; Alfred Douglas Hodge, an acquaintance of Ruby; David L. Johnston, the justice of the peace who arraigned Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit, and who also gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22, 1963; Stanley M. Kaufman, Ruby’s attorney, who spoke to him on November 23; William S. Biggio and Clyde Franklin Goodson, Dallas police officers; Roger C. Warner, a Secret Service agent who participated in the investigation of the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald; Seth Kantor, Danny Patrick McCurdy, Victor F. Robertson, Jr., Frederic Rheinstein, Icarus M. Pappas, John G. McCullough, Wilma May Tice, John Henry Branch, William Glenn Duncan, Jr., Garnett Claud Hallmark, John Wilkins Newnam, Robert L. Norton, Roy A. Pryor, Arthur William Watherwax, Billy A. Rea, Richard L. Saunders, Thayer Waldo, Ronald Lee Jenkins, Speedy Johnson, and Roy E. Standifer, all of whom gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22 and/or November 23, 1963; William Kline and Oran Pugh, U.S. Customs officials who gave testimony regarding their knowledge of Oswald’s trip to Mexico; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the FBI; and Bruce Ray Carlin, Mrs. Bruce Carlin, and Ralph Paul, acquaintances of Jack Ruby; Harry Tasker, taxicab driver in Dallas; Paul Morgan Stombaugh, hair and fiber expert, FBI; Alwyn Cole, questioned document examiner, Treasury Department; B. M. Patterson and L. J. Lewis, witnesses in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Arthur Mandella, fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department; John F. Gallagher, FBI agent; and Revilo Pendleton Oliver, member of the council of the John Birch Society.

Contents

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President’s Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF HYMAN RUBENSTEIN

The testimony of Hyman Rubenstein was taken at 9:20 a.m., on June 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Griffin. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the General Counsel’s Office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized under the rules of procedure of the Commission to take your deposition here today, Mr. Rubenstein.

I might tell you a little bit about the Commission before we go into the testimony.

The Commission was established under an Executive order of President Johnson and under a joint resolution of Congress on November 29, 1963, to investigate and evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson on the assassination of President Kennedy and the facts surrounding the murder of Lee Oswald.

In asking you to come here today, we are particularly concerned with the information you may be able to bring to bear upon the murder of Lee Oswald.

Now, under the authorization setting up this Commission by the President and by Congress, the Commission is authorized to promulgate certain rules of procedure, and pursuant to those rules of procedure, the Commission has authority to issue subpenas and to require witnesses to attend here.

In pursuance of those rules we have sent you a letter. I want to ask you now if you did receive the letter. You are pointing to your inside coat pocket.

Can you tell us when you received the letter from the Commission?

Mr. Rubenstein. I, that I, can’t tell you because I was gone out of town all last week, and I came in Monday night, and I didn’t open my mail until Tuesday morning.

Mr. Griffin. But you did see the letter on Tuesday.

Mr. Rubenstein. Definitely. It was too late for me to get here.

Mr. Griffin. The reason I ask is that you are privileged to have 3 days’ notice before you come here and I wanted to make sure we had given you the 3-day notice.

Mr. Rubenstein. It probably was there.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are also entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney with you if you desire, and I see you don’t have one here so I take it it is not your desire to have one.

Incidentally, in the letter that we sent you did you get a copy of some rules of procedure?

Mr. Rubenstein. I wasn’t worried about it because I felt I have nothing to hide to tell you.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Do you have any questions that you want to ask about the general nature of what the proceeding will be before I administer the oath?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; but I think it is going to be very interesting.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you to raise your right hand if you will. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Rubenstein. I do.

Mr. Griffin. If you would, give the court reporter your name.

Mr. Rubenstein. Hyman Rubenstein.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Rubenstein.

Mr. Rubenstein. 1044 Loyola Avenue.

Mr. Griffin. Is that in Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. Chicago, 26.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you lived there?

Mr. Rubenstein. 6 years.

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. Rubenstein. December 28, 1901.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you born?

Mr. Rubenstein. Warsaw, Poland.

Mr. Griffin. When did you come to this country?

Mr. Rubenstein. When I was 2½ years old.

Mr. Griffin. That would have been in 1903?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t—all right, put it down, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. The only recollection, I take it, you have——

Mr. Rubenstein. From my folks when they told us when they came here.

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. Rubenstein. I am a salesman.

Mr. Griffin. Who do you work for?

Mr. Rubenstein. I work for Davidson and Uphoff.

Mr. Griffin. Where is that?

Mr. Rubenstein. 448 Mark Avenue, Clarendon Hills, Ill.

Mr. Griffin. What do you sell?

Mr. Rubenstein. Florist supplies.

Mr. Griffin. What do those consist of?

Mr. Rubenstein. Bird cages, stands, different things that the florists sell in their shops and greenhouses.

Mr. Griffin. Are you obliged to travel in the course of your employment?

Mr. Rubenstein. Almost constantly.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us a general idea of the area that you travel in?

Mr. Rubenstein. Sure. Now, I cover Michigan. I have covered Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, Kentucky, and Tennessee. With different firms but related to the same field.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been covering Michigan?

Mr. Rubenstein. 11, 12 years.

Mr. Griffin. You said now you cover Michigan. I take it at the present time——

Mr. Rubenstein. This is a new firm I am with.

Mr. Griffin. At the present time you don’t cover any State other than Michigan?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; except this. In 1963 the firm I was with in New York, the Lewis Ribbon Co., merged with the International Artware Co. of Cleveland, so I had to go in business for myself. So, I still cover the same territory for myself as I did with Lewis Ribbon Co. in 1963. So I had a lot of money outstanding so I am trying to pick that up little by little as I am traveling through Illinois and eventually will travel through Wisconsin to pick up money I have coming from merchandise I have sold.

Mr. Griffin. When did you leave the Lewis Ribbon Co.?

Mr. Rubenstein. 1963; January 1st.

Mr. Griffin. You say you went into business for yourself?

Mr. Rubenstein. Right.

Mr. Griffin. What business did you go into then?

Mr. Rubenstein. Same business, ribbons.

Mr. Griffin. Were these sold to floral customers?

Mr. Rubenstein. Right. The same customers I had before.

Mr. Griffin. When did you begin to work for the Davidson-Uphoff Co.?

Mr. Rubenstein. Last month.

Mr. Griffin. I see. So between approximately last January and last month or January 1963 and last month, you were employed for yourself, is that correct?

Mr. Rubenstein. Practically.

Mr. Griffin. Practically?

Mr. Rubenstein. I mean because I haven’t done much work since the incidents down in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. I see. When you were employed for yourself did you travel in any States other than Michigan?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; Illinois and Wisconsin.

Mr. Griffin. How much of your time was spent in each of those States?

Mr. Rubenstein. For one trip complete? In other words, if I had to make a State complete time, how much time would I spend in that State?

Mr. Griffin. In a typical 3-month period, for example.

Mr. Rubenstein. I could cover a State in 3 months.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you were traveling in the fall of 1963, what State?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes; I had just come back from Michigan.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when you began traveling in Michigan?

Mr. Rubenstein. No; but I could have told you that if I had my records here.

Mr. Griffin. I wanted to get a little background on yourself before we go into some general questions. You say you came to this country when you were about 2½?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you come to Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know. I don’t think we did. I think, of course, I think we stopped off in New York, and then I think we came to Chicago. My father was here first.

Mr. Griffin. How long was your father here?

Mr. Rubenstein. He—about a year.

Mr. Griffin. And you say you are not sure where you came to. Did you have a permanent home any place before you moved to Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. So your first permanent home in this country was in Chicago and I take it that would have been shortly after you arrived in the country?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Have you lived in Chicago all your life?

Mr. Rubenstein. Except when I was in the service or where else, except when I travel but outside of—my voting is right here in Chicago, my voting residence.

Mr. Griffin. When were you in military service?

Mr. Rubenstein. From October 1942, until April 1943.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you serve?

Mr. Rubenstein. Fort Lewis, Wash.

Mr. Griffin. Was that in the army?

Mr. Rubenstein. In the army.

Mr. Griffin. Is Fort Lewis near Seattle?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall a man when you were in the service by the name of Sloan, a man from Chicago by the name of Sloan?

Mr. Rubenstein. What business was he in or what was he doing?

Mr. Griffin. He would have been in the service out in Seattle, in the Washington area.

Mr. Rubenstein. The name doesn’t ring.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if your brothers visited you at any time while you were in the service?

Mr. Rubenstein. In the service?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Rubenstein. We were scattered all over the earth.

Mr. Griffin. Was this in the army, your military service?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And what did you do, what rank did you attain?

Mr. Rubenstein. I was a private. I was at 210 Field Artillery, 33d Division.

Mr. Griffin. You spent all of your time at Fort Lewis?

Mr. Rubenstein. Well, we were 1 day at Rockford, you know, they throw a uniform at you and then they put you on the train and you are on the train for 3 days, and then you wind up at Fort Lewis.

Mr. Griffin. You left the service——

Mr. Rubenstein. No; we were in Yakima for cannon training.

Mr. Griffin. You left the service in 1943?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What was the reason for your leaving?

Mr. Rubenstein. Overage. They told me they had no more use for me. They apologized, I had a good record. I got an excellent discharge, they were sorry but they wanted a younger man in my place.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you left the service?

Mr. Rubenstein. I stayed in Seattle.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Rubenstein. About 10 weeks.

Mr. Griffin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Rubenstein. I signed up with the U.S. Army Engineers to go to Alaska, to go to work as a carpenter. I felt I wanted to do something. They were going to build barracks out there. I waited and waited and waited and I got tired of waiting, so I asked the company that hired me to release me, because they did not know when I would be put on a boat to go across. The Army would have allowed only two men, civilians, with the regular soldiers to go across Alaska at a time.

Well, I probably would have been there for 4 years waiting yet so I decided to ask for a release, and they gave me a release and I went back to Chicago.

Mr. Griffin. So the 10 weeks you spent waiting?

Mr. Rubenstein. I worked; I worked part time for the Seaboard Lumber Co.

Mr. Griffin. But the reason you were there was because you were waiting to go to Alaska?

Mr. Rubenstein. Definitely. In fact, I had my tools sent to me, my father’s tools.

Mr. Griffin. Had you worked as a carpenter before?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never.

Mr. Griffin. And on your return to Chicago what did you do?

Mr. Rubenstein. I took odd jobs, whatever I could get to make a buck, you know, salesman on the road. I am trying to think what I sold, novelties, premiums, different things that you could get. A lot of items you couldn’t get, there was a scarcity, so you sold what you could obtain from different companies or different friends who were in business.

Mr. Griffin. Did you work for any particular company?

Mr. Rubenstein. I am trying to think. I can’t think of any particular company I worked for. I probably bought stuff myself and sold it on the road.

Mr. Griffin. I have in front of me your social security, a summary of your social security record. Do you remember working for the Arlington Park Jockey Club?

Mr. Rubenstein. Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin. When was that?

Mr. Rubenstein. Ben Lindheimer—how did that work out, I am trying to think. I worked there just before I got in the service, and then I was drafted, that was the last job I believe I had at the Arlington Park Jockey Club.

Mr. Griffin. Your social security record indicates that you worked for the Arlington Park Jockey Club in 1943.

Mr. Rubenstein. Then I probably went back there.

Mr. Griffin. In fact all of 1943, and in 1942 with the exception of the fourth quarter of 1942.

Mr. Rubenstein. I was in the army for 6 months, how could that possibly be?

Mr. Griffin. I see. When did you go in the army in 1942?

Mr. Rubenstein. October.

Mr. Griffin. October. And when were you separated from the service in 1943?

Mr. Rubenstein. About April.

Mr. Griffin. Well, that would be understandable.

Mr. Rubenstein. Is it October? Because I know I was in the service for 6 months. That I am positive of.

Mr. Griffin. Now do you recall when you left the service coming back to work for the Arlington Park Jockey Club?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t recall but I probably did.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do for them?

Mr. Rubenstein. You are a ticket puncher like he is doing now. You come over and ask for number two I gave you number two. You ask for number five, I gave you number five.

Mr. Griffin. You worked in the mutuel window?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes, mutuel window.

Mr. Griffin. Your record here indicates that you didn’t have any employment covered by social security from 1944 to early 1949.

Mr. Rubenstein. Then——

Mr. Griffin. What were you doing during that period after you left the Washington Park Jockey Club, and actually the last place you worked at the National Jockey Club.

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t know about the names of the jockey club but I worked at the racetrack for a while as a mutuel ticket seller.

As I said before, and I am repeating again, that I bought what I could and sold on the road for myself, and I made a living that way.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

It is my understanding you were selling novelties?

Mr. Rubenstein. Novelties, premiums, punchboards, that is about it. That covers a lot of territory.

Mr. Griffin. What part of the country did you travel in when you were doing that?

Mr. Rubenstein. I covered the Middle West.

Mr. Griffin. Did you cover any of the South?

Mr. Rubenstein. No. I never cared much for the South.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall in the latter part of 1949 working in Ripley, Ohio?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do there?

Mr. Rubenstein. I was a bartender for a friend of mine, Bob Knoff. He owned a tavern, the Riviera Cafe at Front and Main Streets, and Bob said to me, I came down to visit him and he said “What are you doing?” And I said, “Bumming around, making a few bucks selling items.” He said, “I need a bartender. Help me out for a while.” I said, “OK.” So I stayed with him, I don’t know, for about a year, about a year or so, about a year, I think.

Mr. Griffin. 6 months.

Mr. Rubenstein. All right, 6 months. I don’t remember. 1949. Then I went back to Chicago. I fixed a few things for him.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you worked for Mr. Knoff?

Mr. Rubenstein. What year was that, 1949?

Mr. Griffin. 1949, 1950.

Mr. Rubenstein. I went back to my own business again, I think.

Mr. Griffin. Let me just ask you if you remember working for some of these companies and then I will ask you some general questions.

Do you remember working for the Fisher Pen Co.?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was that a——

Mr. Rubenstein. Paul Fisher is a very dear friend of mine, salesman.

Mr. Griffin. Chicago Cardboard Co.?

Mr. Rubenstein. That is the punchboard outfit I told you about, Chicago Cardboard was a punchboard outfit and Paul Fisher, I covered Chicago territory for him.

Mr. Griffin. When you worked for the punchboard company where did you travel?

Mr. Rubenstein. Wisconsin.

Mr. Griffin. How about the Parliament Sales Corp., do you remember working for them?

Mr. Rubenstein. I sold television sets for them only in Chicago.

Mr. Griffin. How about the Enterprise Contract Consultants, do you remember working for them?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t even know who they are.

Mr. Griffin. They were located on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago.

Mr. Rubenstein. That is the same thing, must be.

Mr. Griffin. Same thing?

Mr. Rubenstein. I think it was the same outfit.

Mr. Griffin. Just changed the name?

Mr. Rubenstein. Could be. You never can tell about those outfits. Oh, they had to change their name, I believe, because they were using the word “Paramount.”

Mr. Griffin. Parliament.

Mr. Rubenstein. And they changed it to Parliament to make it sound like Paramount because Paramount wouldn’t let them use their name.

What is this Enterprise deal?

Mr. Griffin. I don’t know, that is why I am asking you.

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t recall, either. How long did I work there?

Mr. Griffin. About 6 months.

Mr. Rubenstein. What did they make?

Mr. Griffin. That is what I am asking.

Mr. Rubenstein. Were they located on Milwaukee Avenue?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Rubenstein. Then it must be the same outfit.

Mr. Griffin. Who were the people who ran it?

Mr. Rubenstein. One fellow was a nice guy and I still see him occasionally in Chicago, Oscar Fishbein, he is president of the firm, I believe, and I still believe he is still in business.

Mr. Griffin. How about the G.T. & I.T. Drake Co.?

Mr. Rubenstein. That was in 1950.

Mr. Griffin. 1952.

Mr. Rubenstein. 1952. I bought a suburban carryall from a friend of mine by the name of Harry King.

Mr. Griffin. Carryall or carryout?

Mr. Rubenstein. Carryall. It is called a suburban carryall. It is a car that is designed to carry all, with glass all around it, and it looked like a small truck where the doors opened up in back like this so you could load and unload easily. I saw an ad in the paper, this Drake outfit, the restaurant outfit, $100 a week, and $100 a week in 1952, gentlemen, is a lot of money.

So, here is how it worked. I delivered, unloaded, and loaded food items for, they paid me $60 a week and $40 for the car expense that was $100 a week. It was a hard job but I took it because it paid well. That was it.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember working for Miracle Enterprises?

Mr. Rubenstein. Miracle?

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember them?

Mr. Rubenstein. Never heard of them.

Mr. Griffin. Would it have been another name for Parliament Sales?

Mr. Rubenstein. It could have been. What address?

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you worked for the Drake Co., who did you work for?

Mr. Rubenstein. I went to work for the Lewis Ribbon Co.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember going back to work for a few months for Fishbein?

Mr. Rubenstein. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Then I take it, you worked for the Lewis Ribbon Co., just simply tell me if this is correct, from early 1953 until you left them.

Mr. Rubenstein. Ten years.

Mr. Griffin. In January of 1964.

Mr. Rubenstein. Ten years.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to leave them?

Mr. Rubenstein. They merged with the International Artware of Cleveland and they sold out. My territory was already absorbed by International’s men. In fact, they had three men in my three states and they had no room for me and felt rather bad about it because I am a rather conscientious worker, I like people, I don’t have trouble selling them legitimate merchandise and I liked the work and I was doing pretty good and they felt very bad. They promised me as soon as there was an opening they would let me know. So that is the story.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to go back a few years more now. Was your childhood spent in Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And I take it you went to school in Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How far did you go in school?

Mr. Rubenstein. I had a couple of years of college.

Mr. Griffin. Of college. Where did you go to college?

Mr. Rubenstein. The YMCA Junior College.

Mr. Griffin. In Chicago?

Mr. Rubenstein. In Chicago, and the Lewis Institute.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of courses did you take?

Mr. Rubenstein. General courses. I was studying prelaw. I wanted to become a lawyer.

Mr. Griffin. When did you attend these institutions?

Mr. Rubenstein. I would say around 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936.

Mr. Griffin. So you were working at the same time?

Mr. Rubenstein. Working at the same time.

Mr. Griffin. Now, going back to your earlier childhood, how many years of continuous formal education did you have until you left school the first time?

Mr. Rubenstein. Well, I graduated high school.

Mr. Griffin. So you graduated from high school, and then what did you do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. Rubenstein. I took whatever job I could to sustain myself and help out the family once in a while when I could.

Mr. Griffin. What year would it have been that you graduated from high school?

Mr. Rubenstein. I graduated in February 1922 from Hyde Park High.

Mr. Griffin. Where was your family living at that time?

Mr. Rubenstein. They were separated. The folks were living, my mother was living, with the children, I think on the west side, and I was living on the south side.

Mr. Griffin. Were you living with any other members of your family?

Mr. Rubenstein. No.

Mr. Griffin. How long had you been separated from the family?

Mr. Rubenstein. I left home when I was, right after I graduated grammar school, when I was about 15. That was in 1916, around 1916 or 1917.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you go to live?

Mr. Rubenstein. I went to the Deborah Boys Club.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you live there?

Mr. Rubenstein. About 3 years.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of place was that?

Mr. Rubenstein. It was a club for boys who had no home, but they had to work or go to school. I did both. I worked after school.